clampe writes "In Everything Bad Is Good For You: How Today's Popular Culture is Actually Making Us Smarter, Steven Johnson tries to convince the reader that video games, television and the Internet are good for us, despite critics who talk about "vast Wastelands" and "infantilized societies". The book raises interesting questions, but in the end is a lightweight analysis that is better for engendering sound bites on NPR and The Daily Show than for convincing serious readers. Read on for Clampes' review. Everything Bad Is Good For You: How Today's Popular Culture is Actually Making Us Smarter author Steven Johnson pages 238 publisher Riverhead Books rating 7 reviewer clampe ISBN 1-57322-307-7 summary Popular culture may have a role in making people smarterIn "Everything Bad Is Good For You" Johnson argues that major forms of entertainment like television, video games, films and the Internet have grown increasingly complex over the past several decades, which corresponds to an increase in average IQ scores in the U.S.The introduction to the book summarizes cultural criticisms about the growing banality of entertainment, focusing mostly on television. Johnson uses this springboard to state his thesis: that popular culture is not only growing more complex, but that the complexity is making consumers of pop culture more intelligent.The main content of the book is divided into two main parts, with the first arguing that video games, television, the Internet and movies have grown more complex in recent years, and the second part outlining the relationship between those forms of entertainment and increased intelligence.Johnson claims that the complexity of problem solving and exploration involved in current video games help players learn critical thinking skills. He amusingly asks the readers to consider a world where video games have been around for centuries and a new technology called the book is all the rage. The cultural critics currently bagging on video games would claim books are static, isolating and understimulating. Johnson is the first to admit he's usng hyperbole here, and books obviously have value, but the point is made. Video games, he points out, cannot be directly compared to books in terms of the types of intelligence they encourage. Video games, according to Johnson, are valuable because they force players to make choices, solve problems, keep track of varied situations and in some cases cooperate with others.Criticizing television is a popular straw man activity for cultural critics. The boob-tube, the idiot box, the vast wasteland. Johnson argues that while the general thinking is TV has gotten worse over the past 30 years, it in fact has become much better. Current shows have more complex narratives, trust viewers to catch subtle references and have denser social networks. Johnson compares "Dragnet" to "Starsky and Hutch" to "Hill Street Blues" to "The Sopranos" to show the evolving complexity of narratives in television dramas. Even reality TV, the easiest target around, is more complex compared to it's historical antecedent, the game show.The Internet is valuable in three ways according to Johnson: by virtue of being participatory, by forcing users to learn new interfaces and by creating new channels for social interaction. Johnson provides a laundry list of online interactions that bring people together and make them smarter.Johnson gives a "qualified yes" to the proposition that movies have undergone the same transformation as television. His main evidence is the increase in the number of characters to be found in "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy compared to the original "Star Wars" trilogy. The other main evidence is the development of a sub-genre of films he calls "mind-benders" typified by Kaufman works like "Being John Malkovich".In Part 2 of the book, Johnson associates research that shows American IQ scores have risen over the past several decades (the Flynn Effect) with the increased complexity of popular culture. He looks at alternative explanations for this trend, such as nutrition and education, dismissing each in favor of the popular culture explanation.The Good:There is something about people who say they never watch TV that makes me want to punch them. I'm also a little tired of having to explain at dinner parties and family gatherings that my playing video games does not mean I went ahead with the lobotomy. Johnson seems to have tapped into a real feeling that television and games are not the worthless pastimes that popular media decries them as. The book raises interesting and important questions, while providing a tonic against cultural nay-sayers.As in previous works like Emergence, Johnson has an engaging and approachable writing style. He blends personal experience and decent explanations of the literature to craft his arguments in an engaging manner.The Bad:The main problem with this book is the strength of the claims made in Part 2. Human intelligence is a complex mechanism affected by a blend of genetic and environmental factors. It is possible that games and television play a role in positively affecting intelligence, but Johnson has not strongly made that case here. The data he presents, while intriguing, are correlational at best and arbitrary at worst. Johnson is actually careful to qualify the populations he considers to be affected by popular culture, and the kinds of intelligence he is talking about. However, the arguments still hang together on fragile strings of "It could be" and "it's not like because of this".For example, it could be that his selection of television shows to compare biases his analysis. What Johnson says about the increased complexity of television narratives seems intuitively true, but there's danger in the kind of analysis where shows are plucked with no clear selection mechanism from the past and we draw such sweeping conclusions from them.There are also several alternative explanations to the trends pointed out in this book. For example, let's assume that there is more worthwhile television than there used to be. However, the real comparison should be between worthwhile television compared over the total amount of television available. Given the explosion of television programming since Starsky and Hutch, it's not surprising that better shows are available. Another explanation might be the maturation of the media. Literature is the gold standard here to some extent, but the novel is an older media form that has had many opportunities to attract good authors than television and video games. Over the centuries that we've had novels, we accumulated some talented authors, and those luminaries attract other talented individuals. Television and video games are a newer media, and consequently haven't accumulated as many giants. Some of Johnson's examples of the new complexity in television and film are really examples of a couple of special individuals, like Aaron Sorkin and Charlie Kaufman, attracted to an increasingly mature art form.The above counter-examples show some of the dangers of this case based argumentation at the center of this book. By using pseudo-case studies, there isn't really a basis by which the data presented by Johnson is stronger than "because I said so." Work that would help his argument has been done in communication studies, developmental psychology and cognitive psychology, but those fields are largely ignored here. Instead, cranky old guys like Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman are set up as straw men. This disconnect reminds of how well Howard Rheingold incorporates current research into popular press efforts like this book. Johnson does use some decent resources like James Paul Gee, and seems to be widely read in several cogent fields, but it doesn't seem reflected as well as might be expected in the actual text.The sections on the Internet and movies are clumsy and seem almost to be afterthoughts to the other sections. The section on video games is stronger, and the book would have been better by concentrating on that element of the story alone. May not have had as cool a title though.Final recommendation:This book is fun, light reading. It's not bad as a catalyst for discussion at parties, but as a serious polemic argument it doesn't hold up. Still, the book is a good airplane read, or something for the hammock. But you're better off playing a video game." You can purchase Everything Bad Is Good For You: How Today's Popular Culture is Actually Making Us Smarter from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page. Everything Bad is Good for You Log in/Create an Account | Top | 261 comments (Spill at 50!) | Index Only | Search Discussion Display Options Threshold: -1: 261 comments 0: 254 comments 1: 210 comments 2: 134 comments 3: 42 comments 4: 19 comments 5: 7 comments Flat Nested No Comments Threaded Oldest First Newest First Highest Scores First Oldest First (Ignore Threads) Newest First (Ignore Threads) The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Wait a second... (Score:4, Informative) by LeonGeeste (917243) * on Friday October 28, @03:30PM (#13898960) (Last Journal: Tuesday October 04, @10:13PM) Is this the same Steven Johnson that wrote this load of crap two years ago?http://slate.msn.com/id/2085668/ [msn.com]His argument (and I use that term advisedly) was that when you use Google, really stupid searches (like for "flowers" alone or "steven" alone) get bad results, so good searches must be getting bad results too. To see how badly he got roasted on that article, you can go into their "fray"http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&tp=webhead&nav= navof [msn.com]and do a search for articles before 07/17/03 (the day after the article was put on the web) to see the comments of the people around that time. (I'd link the search, but it doesn't seem to let me.)Now, I know Johnson had a point, and after tons of criticism he eventually put one together, but that hastily thrown-together-argument should have been in the article the first time around. You can see his pitiful attempts to defend this earlier article here, which is the list of his posts on the Fray:http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&tp=webhead&acti on=morebyuser&m=8603692 [msn.com] [ Reply to ThisRe:Wait a second... by GoatMonkey2112 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:00PMDefine "intelligent". by khasim (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:08PMRe:Wait a second... by RandomPrecision (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:26PMRe:Wait a second... by Surt (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:26PMRe:Wait a second... by jfengel (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:45PMRe:Wait a second... by Surt (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:53PMRe:Wait a second... by Cassanova (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:51PMRe:Wait a second... by Veinor (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:54PMRe:Wait a second... by timeOday (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:58PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Quick, please help (Score:5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 28, @03:31PM (#13898977) don't have time to read articlepls send synopsis, gmail in profileor IMk thxno time to login [ Reply to ThisRe:Quick, please help by Golias (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:17PMThe Imprint?? by PinkPanther (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:50PMRe:Quick, please help by shinma (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:52PMRe:Quick, please help by APDent (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:31PMRe:Quick, please help by krewemaynard (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:27PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. for a good defense of popular (mass) culture... (Score:5, Informative) by vena (318873) on Friday October 28, @03:32PM (#13898981) i still find Herbert Gans' Popular Culture and High Culture [amazon.com] to hold excellent arguments and recommend it for anyone interested in the broad scope of this discussion.(no referral code in amazon.com link, i promise) [ Reply to ThisOh My God, Ive been transported to 2003! by charlie in the trees (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:33PMa bolt of lightining! by uberjoe (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:00PMGet Down by Metostopholes (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:21PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Shiny! by Stanistani (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:34PM San Andreas..... (Score:4, Funny) by wpiman (739077) on Friday October 28, @03:34PM (#13898997) Beating up bitches and killing cops definitely helps on the IQ.People crapped on pool halls when they first came out. Fact is- they kept kids out of trouble. When there was no TV- kids collected comic books. There is always going to be distractions-- they are just growing to be more complicated. [ Reply to ThisRe:San Andreas..... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:55PMCorrection! by PCM2 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:36PMRe:San Andreas..... by pthisis (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:04PMRe:San Andreas..... by ifwm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:04PMRe:San Andreas..... by ifwm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:07PMRe:San Andreas..... by Senzei (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:28PMRe:San Andreas..... by ifwm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:44PMRe:San Andreas..... by Senzei (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:11PMRe:San Andreas..... by jimbolauski (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:32PMRe:San Andreas..... by killkillkill (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:52PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.How it works for me: by Black Parrot (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:35PMRe:How it works for me: by Jherek Carnelian (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:27PMRe:How it works for me: by Blakey Rat (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:37PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by hadj (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:35PM Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber (Score:4, Insightful) by voice_of_all_reason (926702) on Friday October 28, @03:47PM (#13899117) How is this a "problem?"Kids are changing the language, yet still seem able to communicate sufficiently with each other. Sounds like an optimization to me.Perhaps you meant to add "...and get those dang varmints off mah lawn!" too? [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by utexaspunk (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:51PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by jettoki (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:54PM Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber (Score:4, Insightful) by Jekler (626699) on Friday October 28, @04:07PM (#13899288) Kids aren't changing the language, but an all-consuming pursuit for validation and individuality lead them to passionately believe that every act of self-expression is far more important than it really is. Slang and poor usage don't evolve the language. 50 years from now, the rules of formal grammar will most likely be identical. Kids will have adopted new slang, a new way to compose sentences so they sound "cool" to their ears, and even then they'll argue that they're helping evolve the language. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by ionpro (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:44PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:08PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by ionpro (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:05PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by lawpoop (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:30PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by lgw (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:22PMSufficiently? by Spy der Mann (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:08PMRe:Sufficiently? by Blakey Rat (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:20PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Trolling4Columbine (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:17PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by voice_of_all_reason (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:26PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by jadavis (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:44PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by voice_of_all_reason (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:47PMPhysics class by Simonetta (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:14PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by blackmagic1982 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:35PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Rize (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:52PM Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber (Score:5, Funny) by DigitalRaptor (815681) on Friday October 28, @03:55PM (#13899186) (http://brianallen.isagenix.com/) Spend an hour reviewing the average job applications at any small business, or especially a fast food chain.It's hard not to lose hope in the future of humanity when faced with such evidence.I'm half joking, but only half. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by cpeterso (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:01PMI'd want to look back further. by khasim (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:14PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by PGC (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:22PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by mctk (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:20PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by centizen (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:04PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Blakey Rat (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:23PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by enjahova (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:56PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by hadj (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:08PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by enjahova (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:11PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by KoolyM (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:44PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by 6*7 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:49PM Re:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber (Score:4, Funny) by just_another_sean (919159) on Friday October 28, @03:57PM (#13899201) OK I hate grammar/spelling Nazis and I *did* note you said "In the Netherlands..." but a post on correct use of language that fails to use the plural of youngster correctly and uses a phrase like "more easy" instead of easier does not deserve to be moderated insightful. There are definitely times when using proper language, to the point of being obsessive about it, are important. A post about proper language is one of these times.Oh well, good karma was fun while it lasted... [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by cpeterso (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:06PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Pius II. (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:17PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by jejones (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:10PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by thehun101 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:24PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Captain Scurvy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:27PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by ifwm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:29PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Hard_Code (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:42PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by shinma (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:56PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by Mad_Rain (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:21PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by beowulfy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:39PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by booch (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:56PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by thehun101 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:30PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by booch (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:17PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by VJ42 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:24PMRe:Suprisingly, I thought kids are becoming dumber by lgw (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:28PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.2 replies beneath your current threshold.Comedy has certainly improved by Seska (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:36PM Re:Comedy has certainly improved (Score:4, Funny) by wpiman (739077) on Friday October 28, @03:39PM (#13899041) I have to say the 1980's show Dukes of Hazard was the ultimate in sophistication. It has been all downhill from there. [ Reply to This | Parent"Family Guy" and "sophistication" in the same... by StressGuy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:43PMRe:"Family Guy" and "sophistication" in the same.. by xilmaril (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:37PMLet's be honest here by StressGuy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:44PMRe:Let's be honest here by blackmagic1982 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:45PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by Le Marteau (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:46PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by Le Marteau (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:16PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by lgw (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:34PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Comedy has certainly improved by Jeff DeMaagd (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:54PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by Belial6 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:52PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by Damvan (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:22PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by sunwolf (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:10PMRe:Comedy has certainly improved by EvilBudMan (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:50PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Consumerism by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:38PMRe:Consumerism by drewxhawaii (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:32PMShit is Good For You by Taco Cowboy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @11:09PMPlease let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:39PMRe:Please let me be the first to say... by mattACK (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:14PMRe:Please let me be the first to say... by Captain Sarcastic (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:36PMRe:Please let me be the first to say... by blackmagic1982 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:50PMWhile we're throwing out cute book titles by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Well... (Score:4, Interesting) by Sheetrock (152993) on Friday October 28, @03:42PM (#13899070) (http://slashdot.org/...y&uid=442574&id=4236 | Last Journal: Friday October 28, @04:59PM) Johnson claims that the complexity of problem solving and exploration involved in current video games help players learn critical thinking skills.Six months ago I bought a computer game that has been broken in nearly every sense (fun, speed, function) for $50. A couple of patches have been offered for the game that barely touch the problems, and a patch is going to be offered "real soon now" for at least two months.The reaction in the gaming forum I visit to see if the patch is finished is absolutely and totally depressing to me. Any suggestion that this is was a ripoff is immediately torn apart by forum members, a couple of which have actually bought brand new computers to try to get their computers to run this game.So I'm going to go ahead and disagree that critical thinking skills are being enhanced by video games. Every indication I see is that as fun as they are they're like a digital form of huffing glue for "game enthusiasts". [ Reply to ThisBid=1 anecodote? I call. by Quinn_Inuit (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:03PMRe:Bid=1 anecodote? I call. by Quinn_Inuit (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:58PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Well... by iceperson (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:26PMRe:Well... by slackmaster2000 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:46PMRe:Well... by maxume (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:16PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb people by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:42PMRe:Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb peo by AndersOSU (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:04PMRe:Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb peo by MemoryAid (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:54PMRe:Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb peo by lgw (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:39PMRe:Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb peo by shawb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:37PMRe:Maybe the IQ scores are raised only in Dumb peo by pthisis (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:11PMIn his defense... by Otter (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:43PM Re:In his defense... (Score:4, Insightful) by guaigean (867316) on Friday October 28, @03:50PM (#13899141) Those people seem not to understand that the clichedness of bragging about not watching television outweighs any positive impression it makes.Why does one have to brag about not watching TV? I watch rented movie once a month maybe, other than that I avoid it like the plague. It's not that it's bragging, its that I fin that watching TV results in me learning less, and getting less done. It's too easy to zone out on the preview channel for hours, and I just end up tired. Instead, I find programming or interacting with my family in my spare time to be much more enjoyable and stimulating. I have serious doubts about the validity of this author's points. I think as previous posters have mentioned, it has far more to do with the idea that perhaps many people would not have this intellectual stimulation at all without TV, and therefore something is better than nothing. [ Reply to This | Parent Re:In his defense... (Score:4, Interesting) by xappax (876447) on Friday October 28, @04:26PM (#13899457) People have hostile reactions when you say you don't watch TV because they assume that you're trying to prove something, or show how cool you are, or convince them of some political analysis. When the subject comes up and I say "No, I haven't seen that commercial - I don't watch TV," many people respond as though I had said "TV is for the weak-minded. You watch it too much." Why do people interpret a simple statement about personal behavior as a loaded criticism? I suspect it's because on some level, they feel sort of guilty and/or criticize their own TV-watching habits, and are therefore quick to interpret discussion on the subject to be directed towards them. I get the same thing when I say "Oh, the soup has bacon in it? No thanks, I don't eat meat." Suddenly I'm subjected to an extended monologue on why they eat meat and how they don't really eat as much as most people... dude, eat what you want, watch what you want - I don't care, I just don't want to adopt all your habits so that you can feel comfortable. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:In his defense... by UtucXul (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:37PMRe:In his defense... by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:19PMRe:In his defense... by MemoryAid (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:03PMRe:In his defense... by miyako (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:30PMRe:In his defense... by alien_tracking_devic (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:02PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:In his defense... by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:02PMRe:In his defense... by Otter (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:08PMRe:In his defense... by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:12PMRe:In his defense... by P3NIS_CLEAVER (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:31PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:In his defense... by Jonboy X (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:53PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.My question really is this.. by kinglink (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:43PMU watch too much TV, must have affected ur brain! by MS-06FZ (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:01PMRe:U watch too much TV, must have affected ur brai by kinglink (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:31PMEmpty television by nerdup (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:44PMRe:Empty television by funaho (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:29PMRe:Empty television by Reality Master 101 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:32PMRe:Empty television by Fallingcow (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:50PMRe:Empty television by Reality Master 101 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:06PMRe:Empty television by Fallingcow (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:04PMRe:Empty television by Blakey Rat (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:49PMRe:Empty television by Fallingcow (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:41PMRe:Empty television by Bryansix (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:03PMRe:Empty television by Senzei (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:04PM Bad argument (Score:4, Insightful) by Spy der Mann (805235) <spydermann,slashdot&gmail,com> on Friday October 28, @03:47PM (#13899120) (Last Journal: Wednesday October 12, @02:42PM) "video games, television and the Internet are good for us".In the first place, I didn't know videogames (tetris, pacman, Grand Tourismo), Television (Junkyard wars, animal showdown, Wolf's Rain), and the Internet (wikipedia) were bad for us.And I can't think of ANYONE (except extreme fundamentalists) who thinks that ALL videogames, ALL Television and ALL the internet are bad for us. [ Reply to ThisRe:Bad argument by MisterLawyer (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:20PMOh no... by Blue-Footed Boobie (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:48PMRe:Oh no... by An Onerous Coward (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:11PM I'm with Einstein... (Score:5, Insightful) by DigitalRaptor (815681) on Friday October 28, @03:49PM (#13899135) (http://brianallen.isagenix.com/) "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."Albert EinsteinI tend to agree with this poem:We are all blind until we seeThat in the human planNothing is worth the makingIf it does not make the manWhy build these cities gloriousIf man unbuilded goesIn vain we build these citiesUnless the builder also grows.And of course:"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."Theodore RooseveltOur society is plagued with menaces, and I highly doubt that will change, except to increase. If it ever does change it will start at home with better parenting and at church (yeah, yeah, don't even start). [ Reply to ThisI'm with Leto II by myowntrueself (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:48PMRe:I'm with Leto II by myowntrueself (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:49PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:I'm with Einstein... by Slashdiddly (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:40PMStalin by Dire Bonobo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:01PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Ob Woody Allen by HungWeiLo (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:50PMRe:Ob Woody Allen by MemoryAid (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:17PM Average IQ increase. (Score:4, Funny) by adam31 (817930) <adam31@gmaiDALIl.com minus painter> on Friday October 28, @03:53PM (#13899164) which corresponds to an increase in average IQ scores in the U.S.Ah yes, the fabled "increase in average IQ score"... Apparently, we just cracked 100!However, I predict that a plateau for the foreseeable future. [ Reply to ThisRe:Average IQ increase. by grimJester (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:39PMRe:Average IQ increase. by maxume (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:23PMMedia or Technology by ajnsue (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:54PMMain evidence? by Flopy (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:54PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. More channels are better (Score:5, Insightful) by G4from128k (686170) on Friday October 28, @03:55PM (#13899184) I grew up with 3 commercial broadcast channels and 1 public broadcast station. It sucked compared to what's available today on basic cable. Sure there's more junk on TV, including public TV and the old commercial stations. But channels with 24 hr news (of varying leanings), home-and-garden, science shows, outdoor/exploration shows, independent films, food, etc. TV has more hours of quality per day than it did in the past.Yes, total TV crap is up by a factor of 50X and the crap-to-quality factor is worse by a factor of 10, but that still means we have 5X the available hours of quality programming compared to 30 years ago. [ Reply to This Ironic... or is it? (Score:5, Informative) by Wannabe Code Monkey (638617) on Friday October 28, @03:55PM (#13899188) The book raises interesting questions, but in the end is a lightweight analysis that is better for engendering sound bites on NPR and The Daily Show than for convincing serious readers. Hmm... sound bites on NPR... That's interesting, it sounds like you probably never listen to NPR [npr.org]. The breadth and depth of their coverage far surpasses any other news source I've found. For example On Point [onpointradio.org] is a two hour program, each hour consists of: An opening news debrief from a reporter or journalist on the biggest stories of the day. An in-depth conversation on a single topic with newsmakers, thinkers and callers. And the end of the hour segment that allows for more personal reactions to news and important issues, including radio diaries, excerpts from speeches, or special series segments.They almost always have two or three experts in the relevant field during the discussion segment. Topics are explained and discussed with logic and level-headedness. Most of the time the topics are shown to be complicated with more sides than just the conservative vs. liberal slant you get from other news sources.In fact I was listening when Morning Edition held a seven minute interview with the author of "Everything Bad is Good for You" back in May. I just googled for it now and it's available to listen to for free on their website: Morning Edition, May 24, 2005: Everything Bad is Good for You [npr.org]. [ Reply to ThisRe:Ironic... or is it? by Bob Hellbringer (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:11PMRe:Ironic... or is it? by Blakey Rat (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:27PMRe:Ironic... or is it? by Wannabe Code Monkey (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:55PMRe:What do you have against The Daily Show by Wannabe Code Monkey (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:41PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Huh? This guy sure is defensive.. by Pudusplat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @03:58PMFocus Groups Ruin Everything by queenb**ch (Score:3) Friday October 28, @03:58PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Intelligence by baadger (Score:2) Friday October 28, @03:58PMI read this book about four months ago by ferrocene (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:00PMOops. by DrEldarion (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:01PMRe:Oops. by cens0r (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:18PMEverything bad is good... by aepervius (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:03PMSo, then,... logically... by notnAP (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:10PMGiving the benefit of the doubt by StressGuy (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:13PMRe:Giving the benefit of the doubt by cens0r (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:21PMGetting way ahead of his blockers by Bernal KC (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:19PM This too easy.... (Score:5, Insightful) by brundlefly (189430) on Friday October 28, @04:23PM (#13899425) His main evidence is the increase in the number of characters to be found in "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy compared to the original "Star Wars" trilogy. The other main evidence is the development of a sub-genre of films he calls "mind-benders" typified by Kaufman works like "Being John Malkovich".No. "The Lord of the Rings" is complex because it was a trilogy of books first. Almost 2000 pages of complexity, compared to the flimsy "she's your sister Luke" of Star Wars. Blech. Star Wars by comparison is like the O.C. in space, give me a break.And if "Being John Malkovich" is in a sub-genre of films called mind-benders, you would have to be very ignorant of the history of movies not to at least in part attribute the history of the genre to Hitchcock. [ Reply to ThisRe:This too easy.... by m1a1 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:08PMbut.... by srsrsr (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:23PMEinstein Never Played "Halo" by Sundroid (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:25PMErrr... Not really. by porkchop_d_clown (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:03PM1 reply

DJ-Dodger writes "The Microsoft Blogs are all buzzing with news that the .NET Framework 2.0, Visual Studio.NET 2005 and Sql Server 2005 have released to manufacture. Michael Swanson's blog has a nice run down of what's available now and what's coming. The short version: MSDN Subscribers can download everything now, everybody else can pick up their copy after the November 7th launch." The .Net framework is downloadable from FileForum.Ads_xl=0;Ads_yl=0;Ads_xp='';Ads_yp='';Ads_xp1='';Ads_yp1='';Ads_par='';Ads_cnturl='';Ads_prf='page=article';Ads_channels='RON_P6_IMU';Ads_wrd='programming';Ads_kid=0;Ads_bid=0;Ads_sec=0; .Net Framework and Visual Studio Now Available Log in/Create an Account | Top | 268 comments | Search Discussion Display Options Threshold: -1: 268 comments 0: 254 comments 1: 189 comments 2: 121 comments 3: 24 comments 4: 10 comments 5: 5 comments Flat Nested No Comments Threaded Oldest First Newest First Highest Scores First Oldest First (Ignore Threads) Newest First (Ignore Threads) The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Oh boy! (Score:2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 28, @04:12PM (#13899325) I just love Microsoft products!Now, I just wait for the karma to roll in ... [ Reply to ThisSeriously by Overly Critical Guy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:42PMRe:Just spotted SQL 2005 by RomanySaad (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:08PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Torrent? (Score:5, Funny) by fuzzy12345 (745891) on Friday October 28, @04:13PM (#13899332) Sheesh. At least point us to a torrent.And "SQL Server 2005"? Shouldn't that be 2006? What do I want with last year's model? [ Reply to This Last Years Model? (Score:5, Funny) by SuperKendall (25149) * on Friday October 28, @04:31PM (#13899519) And "SQL Server 2005"? Shouldn't that be 2006? What do I want with last year's model?I'm pretty sure it's not a year thing, I believe it was either a required number of open ports to run or how many default logins with blank passwords it offers that you have to unset manually one by one. [ Reply to This | Parent1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Torrent? by DrEldarion (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:39PMIt's 2005 because... by HalAtWork (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:45PMRe:It's 2005 because... by rebelcan (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:32PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold. Direct download (Score:5, Informative) by dedazo (737510) on Friday October 28, @04:13PM (#13899337) If you're downloading the 2.0 framework & SDK (many people write .NET apps without Visual Studio), you can get them directly [microsoft.com] from the MSDN .NET developer center.I'm guessing MSDN is going to be less swamped than FileForum, though the subscriber downloads are extremely slow at the moment as expected. [ Reply to ThisRe:Direct download by jeroenb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:19PMRe:Direct download by dedazo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:22PMRe:Direct download by jenkin sear (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:24PMRe:Direct download by Sexy Commando (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:05PMRe:Direct download by ergo98 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:37PMRe:Direct download by dedazo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:54PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. They're getting ready to give it out (Score:1, Informative) by damiceious (819510) on Friday October 28, @04:14PM (#13899341) Sounds like they're getting ready to distribute it during the "Ready Launch Tour 2005"http://www.microsoft.com/events/2005launchevents/s st.mspx [microsoft.com] [ Reply to ThisRe:They're getting ready to give it out by ClippyHater (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:39PMRe:They're getting ready to give it out by stoolpigeon (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:06PMRe:They're getting ready to give it out by stupidfoo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:23PMRe:They're getting ready to give it out by LurkerXXX (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:00PMRe:They're getting ready to give it out by LurkerXXX (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:38PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.No Massachusetts Event??? by Bricklets (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:51PM You could get a free copy (Score:4, Informative) by mymaxx (924704) on Friday October 28, @04:14PM (#13899347) They are handing out free copies at their launch events. [ Reply to ThisRe:You could get a free copy by Surt (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:20PMRe:You could get a free copy by spartan7891 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:33PMRe:You could get a free copy by stoolpigeon (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:09PMRe:You could get a free copy by Naikrovek (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:36AMRe:You could get a free copy by RandoX (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:49PMRe:You could get a free copy by el-spectre (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:10PMRe:You could get a free copy by Pop69 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:29PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. C# Generics (Score:2, Informative) by skraps (650379) on Friday October 28, @04:15PM (#13899354) It's about time. The beta has been out for about a year I think. [ Reply to This Re:C# Generics (Score:4, Informative) by Pxtl (151020) on Friday October 28, @05:05PM (#13899859) (http://www.livejournal.com/~pxtl) C# Generics should've been in the language back when it was called Java. The fact that the whole development world jumped over to these JIT platforms before that kind of basic expressiveness was present in the language perplexed and disgusted me. I mean really, for all people call them "C++ without the cruft" missing templates was "C++ without the basic, usable functionality". [ Reply to This | ParentRe:C# Generics by rp (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:39PMRe:C# Generics by Lucractius (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:43PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:C# Generics by sjelkjd (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:08PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.2 replies beneath your current threshold. Sql Server 2005 eh ? (Score:3, Funny) by testednegative (843833) on Friday October 28, @04:16PM (#13899358) I wonder if they still have the wonderfull sa/(null) feature. God I loved that one... [ Reply to ThisThey fixed that! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:35PMRe:They fixed that! by Jorkapp (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:26PMRe:Sql Server 2005 eh ? by lowe0 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:47PMRe:Sql Server 2005 eh ? by bobcat7677 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:51PM Re:Won't they please think of backward compatabili (Score:4, Insightful) by captain_craptacular (580116) on Friday October 28, @05:16PM (#13899963) Give me a break. Are you seriously trying to blame Microsoft because your outdated, extremely poorly coded vb6 apps won't work with a product being released at least 5 years after they became obsolete? Any programmer worth a penny puts things like database connection strings in a single, central, secure place that can be edited without recompiling the app, anything else is inexcuseable. Furthermore, I don't know what version of SQL server you're running, but you haven't been able to have a blank sa password for at least 2 years. Which tells me that you're either full of it, or running unpatched databases. Would you blame Red Hat if your linux server was hacked via an exploit they patched 3 years ago but you just never bothered to apply the patch? [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Won't they please think of backward compatabili by NutscrapeSucks (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:41PMRe:Won't they please think of backward compatabili by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:19PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Sql Server 2005 eh ? by 0kComputer (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:23PMRe:Sql Server 2005 eh ? by martinlp (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:40PMRe:Sql Server 2005 eh ? by Hurricane78 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:24PMBack then..... by nurb432 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:29PM Cool! (Score:5, Insightful) by dslauson (914147) on Friday October 28, @04:17PM (#13899369) (Last Journal: Wednesday October 19, @04:35PM) As much as I hate to give MS props, C# is one of my favorite languages to program in. I'm a GNU programmer at heart, but programming C# is like brain candy. I don't have to think about memory allocation or anything even remotely machine-related.I know, I know, Java's got that stuff, too. I like 'em both. A guy can swing both way, right? [ Reply to ThisRe:Cool! by geoffrobinson (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:22PMRe:Cool! by AstroDrabb (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:32PMRe:Cool! by dslauson (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:46PMRe:Cool! by bill_kress (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:06PMRe:Cool! by tenchiken (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:11PMRe:Cool! by eneville (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:13PMRe:Cool! by dadragon (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:48PMRe:Cool! by deaddrunk (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:31PMRe: ideas that SHOULD have been lifted from Java by dougTheRug (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:33PMRe: ideas that SHOULD have been lifted from Java by JakusMinimus (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:53PMRe:Cool! by DrXym (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:38PMRe:Cool! by ad0gg (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:58PMRe:Cool! by SpryGuy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:01PMRe:Cool! by AaronBrethorst (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:40PMRe:Cool! by AndroidCat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:51PMRe:Cool! by sconeu (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:11PMRe:Cool! by eprubio (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:40PMRe:Cool! by Axe (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:35PMRe:Cool! by NuclearRampage (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:34PMRe:Cool! by Jugalator (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:09PM Re:Cool! (Score:4, Insightful) by Thai-Pan (414112) on Friday October 28, @04:54PM (#13899732) (Last Journal: Monday March 29, @07:47PM) Thank you! I feel exactly the same. I've been a Linux hippie for years, but I'm very rapidly converting to the dark side. Get prepared for a rant not specific to just C#...I don't care what anyone says, C# is way better than Java. And I have ~5 years experience with Java, 6 months experience with C#. It converted me in no time. C# is very pleasant and the language just seems to get out of your way when you want to do something, largely because of the .Net framework.I'm tired of the fact that it's "cool" to make fun of Microsoft on Slashdot. But you know what? They have a lot of very solid products. Visual Studio is a fantastic IDE. SQL Server is not always the server of choice, but it is very powerful nonetheless.I'd say this is going to be a very big year for Microsoft. All of their major product groups have a major release due out, and they're all looking very good from what I've seen so far.So we may not always like Microsoft's products in every way, and we may downright hate some of their business practices. Does that make Visual Studio and C# any worse of a product? Does that make Microsoft Word a worse word processor? NO."OMG WINDOWS 95 HAD BLUE SCREENS LOL C# MUST BE BAD" -- Grow up.The entire open source community needs to grow up a little bit. There's a tremendous amount of talent in it, but it's so obscured by absurd social stigmas and internet-Green-Peace propaganda that a great deal of it loses credability. Visual Studio is a great IDE. C# is a great language. Office is a great productivity toolkit. People use them. Live with it, move on. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Cool! by SpryGuy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:07PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Cool! by m4g02 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:12PMRe:Cool! by CausticPuppy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:16PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Cool! by Samus (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:13PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.I guess I will troll then by Seraphim_72 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @11:58PMRe:Cool! by jma05 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:03PMRe:Cool! by Pxtl (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:15PMRe:Cool! by dslauson (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:35PMRe:Cool! by Pxtl (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:48PMRe:Cool! by dslauson (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:52PMRe:Cool! by mrcparker (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:45PMRe:Cool! by Pxtl (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:59PMRe:Cool! by Lord of the Fries (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:50PMRe:C# Not Cool by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:55PMRe:C# Not Cool by amightywind (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:50PM6 replies beneath your current threshold. Windows without a compiler?! (Score:2, Interesting) by zerojoker (812874) on Friday October 28, @04:29PM (#13899496) This article made me think about it. I mean Microsoft is shipping an operating system without a compiler included. Isn't that strange, that everyone takes this as normal? Isn't a compiler an integral part of an operating system.I mean sure, a nice IDE is something different, and with those Express Editions things have changed now, but still... if you buy a computer out of the box you can't program it. Not even a simple compiler, Basic or whatever. In the good ol' days that would have been unthinkable... [ Reply to ThisNo. by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:36PMRe:No. by slapout (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:05PMRe:No. by sarguin (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:22PMWell... by Sr. Pato (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:24PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Windows without a compiler?! by fanfriggintastic (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:38PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by just_another_sean (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:39PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by beerman2k (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:44PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by mikael (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:46PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by PCM2 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:50PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by swingkid (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:40PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by StandardDeviant (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:43PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by fractaloon (Score:3) Friday October 28, @04:40PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by deedubya (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:43PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by istartedi (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:53PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by Spy der Mann (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:49PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by lowe0 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:51PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by dedazo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:53PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by eltoyoboyo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:04PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by slapout (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:08PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by petee moobaa (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:09PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by TofuDog (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:14PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by petee moobaa (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:06PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by LurkerXXX (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:22PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Windows without a compiler?! by jshaped (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:54PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by yuiop (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:02PMRe:Windows without a compiler?! by lasindi (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:33PM3 replies beneath your current threshold. Remember.... (Score:1, Informative) by carguy84 (897052) on Friday October 28, @04:29PM (#13899499) If you have a Version 2.0 Beta installed, you HAVE to uninstall it first. Version 1 can co-exist with it. Uninstall the beta before trying to install the new release, otherwise it will barf at you and make you close it anyway.And in IIS 2003, you may have to re-enable ASP.NET web server extensions if you had it off by default prior to your previous install.A couple of gotchas I have run into.2.0.50727.42 is the version you should be downloading. [ Reply to This Get it here (Score:2, Offtopic) by anandpur (303114) on Friday October 28, @04:30PM (#13899505) (http://dilse.net/happy/) Mono provides the necessary software to develop and run .NET client and server applications on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X, Windows, and Unixhttp://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page [mono-project.com] [ Reply to ThisRe:Get it here by oni (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:27PMRe:Get it here by amliebsch (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:52PMRe:Get it here by wasabii (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:10PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:Get it here by laffer1 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:24PM Why No Merge Module?? (Score:2) by EXTomar (78739) on Friday October 28, @04:30PM (#13899510) (Last Journal: Thursday July 10, @11:13AM) Again I don't see a merge module for this piece of software.This has always been perplexing: Why is there no merge module for the .Net Framework to build installs around? Admittedly MS's packaging system isn't portable while .Net strives to be (how much it is a subject of debate). So if a true merge module is not possible how about providing a "dummy" merge module instead that doesn't provide the distributable but provides install time information?? If I have to make an install for .Net application it requires a bunch of "hoop jumping" to not only determine if the .Net Framework is installed but if the version/patch level is the target. This is informaton the package system should be providing instead of the installer hunting for evidence of the installed components!!If MS really wants the .Net Framework to be adopted by the end user (note I didn't write 'developers'), they should make any installation issues a breeze. [ Reply to ThisRe:Why No Merge Module?? by jeroenb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:37PMRe:Why No Merge Module?? by jeroenb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:14PMRe:Why No Merge Module?? by Timothy Chu (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Why No Merge Module?? by Zebra_X (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:38PMRe:Why No Merge Module?? by omibus (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:27PMRe:Why No Merge Module?? by AndroidCat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:32PM Just in Time (Score:1) by clinko (232501) <JTGermanyNO@SPAMmsn.com> on Friday October 28, @04:38PM (#13899594) (http://www.clinko.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday February 07, @04:25PM) The problem with the .NET Framework is that it has to be installed on the PC for any .NET apps to work (Seems obvious, but that's the catch...)All XP SP2 Machines have 1.1 finally, so I can make an app and distribute it easily now...Because of this, your best bet is to always program in the previous version of the .NET framework. (This was the same in 1.0 vs. 1.1)I'll be excited about the 2.0 release in about 3 years, when Vista is on a good share of PCs... [ Reply to This Best of All! (Score:1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 28, @04:44PM (#13899633) A brand new version of Visual Basic is included! w00t!! [ Reply to ThisRe:Best of All! by AndroidCat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:16PMRe:Best of All! by Pxtl (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:25PMRe:Best of All! by AndroidCat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:37PMRe:Best of All! by petee moobaa (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:17PM Java will still rule (Score:4, Insightful) by thammoud (193905) on Friday October 28, @04:50PM (#13899688) The fact of the matter is that C# will never be able to erode Java's dominance since it is not cross platform. Don't sell me on the Mono project. It is still a little toy. For the .NET platform to be a true competitor, MS will have to port it to all Java supported platforms. Not very likely. Most projects that we work with are written in Java and Run on various platforms. No amount of .NOT will ever touch that. [ Reply to ThisRe:Java will still rule by 0kComputer (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:17PMRe:Java will still rule by megame (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:25PMRe:Java will still rule by TheNetAvenger (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:15PMRe:Java will still rule by j3tt (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:04PMRe:Java will still rule by hao2lian (Score:1) Friday October 28, @11:24PMRe:Java will still rule by Naikrovek (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:49AMSome problems with your argument by SuperKendall (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:03PMRe:Java will still rule by SComps (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:34PMRe:Java will still rule - you idiot by Axe (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:05PM4 replies beneath your current threshold. Changelog for .Net 2 (Score:2, Interesting) by cranesan (526741) on Friday October 28, @04:53PM (#13899724) Does anyone know what changed between .NET 2 and 1.1? I can't find anything on Microsoft's site describing what changed. [ Reply to ThisRe:Changelog for .Net 2 by owlstead (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:12PMRe:Changelog for .Net 2 by SpryGuy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:16PMRe:Changelog for .Net 2 by AndroidCat (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:24PMRe:Changelog for .Net 2 by ChicagoDave (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:29PMRe:Changelog for .Net 2 by megame (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:37PM For once.... (Score:2) by DeepDarkSky (111382) on Friday October 28, @04:56PM (#13899747) No automatic negative remarks in the article nor by the editor of Slashdot...what is this world coming to? [ Reply to This Visual Studio Express (Score:2, Insightful) by ChaserPnk (183094) on Friday October 28, @04:59PM (#13899788) Personally, as a student, Im looking forward to Visual Studio Express editions. [microsoft.com]You can still grab the Express betas for free. From what I hear, the price point for the final version will be under $100. I think this is a great move by Microsoft. Now millions of students will have access to a cheap, industry standard IDE to code in. What could be better?Not sure when the final versions will be released, but hoping Nov 7 as well. [ Reply to ThisRe:Visual Studio Express by jalefkowit (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:51PMRe:Visual Studio Express by cheekyboy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:28PMRe:Visual Studio Express by Matt - Duke '05 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:53PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Even Money Says (Score:2, Insightful) by BronxBomber (633404) on Friday October 28, @05:03PM (#13899825) Half the /. posts that will piss on this news have not ever used the product, let alone .NET.Go on, mod me troll... you know its true. I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but it goes both ways. [ Reply to ThisRe:A spade is a spade by dougTheRug (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:21PMRe:Even Money Says by Seraphim_72 (Score:1) Saturday October 29, @12:07AM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Benefits on .NET 2.0 Framework (via ASP.net) (Score:3, Insightful) by PhatboySlim (862704) on Friday October 28, @05:39PM (#13900153)

Morgalyn writes "According to an article at Information Week, Microsoft has decided to fight zombie-launched spam in their own way. In conjunction with the FTC and consumer rights groups, Microsoft set up a clean computer and then infected it. They monitored the 'zombie' over the course of 20 days - 'In those 20 days, this one computer received 5 million connection requests from spammers, and sent 18 million spam messages'. This whole operation has led to the (partial) identification of 13 different spamming groups, some of which reside in the US and may be prosecuted under the CAN-SPAM act."Ads_xl=0;Ads_yl=0;Ads_xp='';Ads_yp='';Ads_xp1='';Ads_yp1='';Ads_par='';Ads_cnturl='';Ads_prf='page=article';Ads_channels='RON_P6_IMU';Ads_wrd='spam,doj';Ads_kid=0;Ads_bid=0;Ads_sec=0; Microsoft's Vigilante Investigation of Zombies Log in/Create an Account | Top | 301 comments | Search Discussion Display Options Threshold: -1: 301 comments 0: 296 comments 1: 224 comments 2: 137 comments 3: 41 comments 4: 23 comments 5: 17 comments Flat Nested No Comments Threaded Oldest First Newest First Highest Scores First Oldest First (Ignore Threads) Newest First (Ignore Threads) The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Steve Ballmer on Zombies (Score:5, Funny) by ponds (728911) on Friday October 28, @04:56PM (#13899749) Microsoft should just have Steve Ballmer fucking kill them. [ Reply to ThisRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by non0score (Score:1) Friday October 28, @04:57PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by utnow (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:26PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by vsprintf (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:25PMLawyers and ISP Clout matter more than Interns by billstewart (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:22PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by Pharmboy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:24PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Re:Steve Ballmer on Zombies (Score:5, Funny) by conJunk (779958) on Friday October 28, @05:00PM (#13899799) Microsoft should just have Steve Ballmer fucking kill themGives new meaning to "i've burried them before and i'll burry them again" eh? [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by Senzei (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:23PMSeattle has lots of Berries by billstewart (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:10PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by ackthpt (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:01PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by Pyrion (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:57PMcruel and unusual by www.sorehands.com (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:08AMCruel, maybe by A nonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:01PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by mctk (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:05PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by ravenspear (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:15PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by AngryNick (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:00PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by dextromulous (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:12PMI will give $10,000 to charity... by mindaktiviti (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:42PMRe:Steve Ballmer on Zombies by Nanoda (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:18PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Microsoft fighting zombies? (Score:5, Funny) by MrFlannel (762587) on Friday October 28, @04:57PM (#13899751) Not a moment too soon! With Halloween on Monday and everything, this comes at a perfect time to save my brain.I'll still lock my doors though. [ Reply to ThisRe:Microsoft fighting zombies? by robertjw (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:45PM I can imagine the costumes! (Score:5, Funny) by Spy der Mann (805235) <spydermann,slashdot&gmail,com> on Friday October 28, @06:19PM (#13900493) (Last Journal: Wednesday October 12, @02:42PM) Costume 1: Guy disguises himself as a zombie and puts on a cardboard monitor. Here instead of "brainssssssss" he should say: "mailssssssssssss"Costume 2: A fat guy carrying a chair, with a Google T-Shirt (and the handwritten letters above: "I'll F**ing Kill". Obviously his secondary target would be the guy wearing costume 1.Now the following may be off-topic, but what the heck, I got started!Costume 3: Just put on a Bill Gates mask, and wear a Microsoft T-Shirt. And instead of "Trick or treat", you say: "End User License Agreement".Costume 4: Disguise yourself as a Lawyer and stick the logos of BMG, Sony, Time Warner (did I miss any?) on the back. Instead of "Trick or treat", say "Court or Settlement"Costume 5: Disguise yourself as Zombie, but instead of wearing the cardboard monitor, just put an AOL sticker on your shirt. You're an official "AOL user". Instead of moaning "brainssss" you'll say: "Me, tooooo!"Costume 6: Disguise yourself as a monitor, and paint the front in blue. :)Costume 7: Paint your face black and buy fake jewelry. Pretend you're the relative of a Nigerian prince who just died. [ Reply to This | ParentOops! Forgot the scariest one! by Spy der Mann (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:26PMRe:Oops! Forgot the scariest one! by Ythan (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:50PMZombie Walks in Seattle 10/29, 10/31 by billstewart (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:36PM In other words... (Score:5, Funny) by shades66 (571498) on Friday October 28, @04:57PM (#13899754) "Microsoft set up a clean computer and then infected it."So they switched it on and connected it to the net? [ Reply to ThisRe:In other words... by Phroggy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:58PMRe:In other words... by Quasar1999 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @04:59PMRe:In other words... by shades66 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:02PMRe:In other words... by mctk (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:09PMRe:In other words... by NanoGator (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:56PMRe:In other words... by schon (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:11PM Even if not (Score:5, Insightful) by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Friday October 28, @05:18PM (#13899981) I haven't seen anywhere in the anti-spam laws that says you have a positive duty to stop spam. There doesn't seem to be any criminal culpability for getting a system hacked. The person doing the hacking and spamming is in trouble, but not the person that it happened to.If I'm incorrect on this, please point out the relivant part of the law. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Even if not by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:22PMRe:Even if not by Foobar of Borg (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:45PMRe:Even if not by Headcase88 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:19PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Even if not by schon (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:15PMRe:Even if not by abirdman (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:08PMRe:Even if not by Courageous (Score:3) Friday October 28, @08:19PMRe:In other words... by Viper Daimao (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:21PMRe:In other words... by vinn01 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:13PMRe:In other words... by misleb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:30PMRe:In other words... by Shanep (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:39PMRe:In other words... by capilot (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:18PM Re:In other words... (Score:5, Interesting) by slavemowgli (585321) on Friday October 28, @05:07PM (#13899883) (http://venganza.org/) You moderators may think that's funny, but there's more than a grain of truth in there. The current estimate by the ISC's DShield [dshield.org] for how long it takes for a random computer to get infected after it's connected to the Internet is 26 minutes.Think about that for a moment... and then ask yourself why we actually take this for granted instead of suing Microsoft into oblivion. Would a car company get away with cars breaking down on real-life roads an average 26 minutes after they're purchased? The thought is totally ridiculous, yet we accept the same from Microsoft. Why? [ Reply to This | Parent Re:In other words... (Score:5, Informative) by texwtf (558874) on Friday October 28, @05:16PM (#13899960) That's not a reasonable analogy. This is more like the car is broken into within 26 minutes.The Internet is like Baghdad for computers but 10000 times more intense.The operating system doesn't merely fall apart - it's broken apart by the equivalent of roaming street thugs.I agree that microsoft it partially responsible (does rpc really need to be accessible by default?) - but on the other hand, until very recently your average linux install didn't take long to get 0wn3d either.  [ Reply to This | ParentRe:In other words... by shmlco (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:27PMRe:In other words... by jabuzz (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:50PMRe:In other words... by jedrek (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:14PMRe:In other words... by LO0G (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:10PMRe:In other words... by vsprintf (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:12PMRe:In other words... by MrKahuna (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:41PMRe:In other words... by texwtf (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:51PMRe:In other words... by MrKahuna (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:29PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Re:In other words... (Score:4, Interesting) by valhallaprime (749304) on Friday October 28, @06:13PM (#13900434) "The operating system doesn't merely fall apart - it's broken apart by the equivalent of roaming street thugs."I strongly agree with this. I'm not pro or anti-MS, I just happen to be a SysAdmin that uses their stuff every day, and manages 120 desktops. It's just a fact that there are a lot of shady monkeys that are trying 24/7 to find exploits, holes, and other crap for nefarious deeds.Call it civic duty, but once a week I spend an hour going thru my spam-logs, and pick a couple (that are obviously being sent from 0wn3d boxen), trace their IP, look up which provider owns the range. I then call their NOC (Which is almost always listed in their WhoIs record), and report the IP (if they're a U.S. provider).I honestly get a call-back one out of every three times from a provider, saying they've found the hostile traffic coming from that address, and they temporarily block access, or alerted the sysadmin managing the address.It may be little, but it's sorta civic duty to do something about this from time to time. Kudos to Cavalier and Verizon especially for following up on my calls. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:In other words... by Stephen Samuel (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:25PMRe:In other words... by mysidia (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:54PMRe:In other words... by strikethree (Score:1) Saturday October 29, @12:25AM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:29PMRe:In other words... by 6OOOOO (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:22PMRe:In other words... by Spamalope (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:41PMRe:In other words... by tomhudson (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:29PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by dr-suess-fan (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:31PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by Midnight Thunder (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:33PMRe:In other words... by tomhudson (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:33PMRe:In other words... by misleb (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:35PMRe:In other words... by pclminion (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:35PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by Hard_Rock_2 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:38PMRe:In other words... by DrSkwid (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:52PMRe:In other words... by Hard_Rock_2 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:15PMRe:In other words... by doodlebumm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:32PMRe:In other words... by Hard_Rock_2 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:41PMRe:In other words... by Poingggg (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:06PMRe:In other words... by Shanep (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:19PMRe:In other words... by Tony Hoyle (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:32PMHow long do you think it would take... by douglips (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:40PMRe:In other words... by bosewicht (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:41PMRe:In other words... by Phae (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:50PM If my car had millions of people throwing bricks (Score:5, Insightful) by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Friday October 28, @05:56PM (#13900307) I'd be amazed if it lasted 30 seconds.When you get right down to it, cars are shitty in reliability compared to software. Off the top of my head, here are some major problems my car has, at least when looked at from a software standpoint:1) My car is very venurable to break ins. You can smash a window, jimmy the locks and so on. It's easy, requries no knowledge to do.2) My car doesn't deal with faulty input. If I set it in neutral and floor it, the engine will overheat and seize up. There's no system to deal with faulty operation like that.3) My car has problems with user error. If I drive it in to a wall on accident, it'll stop functioning. Same if a user of another car makes a mistake and hits it.Worse yet, the manufacturer will not fix ANY of these faults, even for a price. Even worse they KNEW about ALL of them when they sold the car.Now compare that to software where we expect that it be essentially faultless and when a fault is found, that it be fixed quickly and for free.Something tells me that if someone put a brick through your window, it would be them that you wanted busted, not the maker of your car. Yet if someone hacks your OS, you are mad at the OS maker, not that hacker.Only on Slashdot :P. [ Reply to This | ParentMy three cars... by Savage-Rabbit (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:58PMRe:My three cars... by evilapplepie (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:01PMRe:My three cars... by GigsVT (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:54PMRe:My three cars... by tomhudson (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:42PMRe:My three cars... by Sycraft-fu (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:39PMRe:My three cars... by Savage-Rabbit (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:07PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:If my car had millions of people throwing brick by Shanep (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:If my car had millions of people throwing brick by NotBorg (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:44PMRe:If my car had millions of people throwing brick by plierhead (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:33PMRe:If my car had millions of people throwing brick by AEton (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:49PMRe:Crap Car by Superfarstucker (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:27PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.3 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by Sloppy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:02PMRe:In other words... by Adammil2000 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:13PMRe:In other words... by Dragoon412 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @07:00PMRe:In other words... by Kent Recal (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:36PMRe:In other words... by Shanep (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:05PMRe:In other words... by jwink (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:08PMRe:In other words... by donaldm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:30PMRe:In other words... by Junior J. Junior III (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:49PMRe:In other words... by MetaPhyzx (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:16PMRe:In other words... by KanSer (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:19AM3 replies beneath your current threshold.Re:In other words... by scherrey (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:12PM Re:In other words... (Score:4, Funny) by vsprintf (579676) on Friday October 28, @07:39PM (#13901232) So they switched it on and connected it to the net? They were far too impatient to wait 30 minutes, so they infected it themselves. Remember these are the guys who do code reviews every twenty years. [ Reply to This | ParentHeavens no! by projectVORTEX (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:14PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Own...? (Score:2, Interesting) by NoTheory (580275) on Friday October 28, @04:57PM (#13899760) How is this fighting this in thier own way? Don't lots of other orgs do this same thing...? Don't they also fight spammers in other ways too? And also, if they're doing this in conjunction with a whole bunch of other people... how is this their own way? :P [ Reply to ThisRe:Own...? by governorx (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:23PMIn Fairness by TubeSteak (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:23PMIt's still erroneous terminology by Tau Zero (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:31PMWell, it's their own way... by sczimme (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:27PM Re:Well, it's their own way... (Score:5, Insightful) by Midnight Thunder (17205) on Friday October 28, @05:40PM (#13900169) (http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Saturday February 05, @04:50AM) That amount of data was impossible to analyze, so Microsoft focused on the three most-active spamming days, when 470,00 connection requests were made of the PC, and about 1.8 million messages were sent through it.How nice: they allowed 18M junk messages to go through, but could be bothered to look at only 10% of the data. Unbelievable.Do you want the job of analyzing all 18 million messages? If they are only analyzing 10% its probably because they figure that the other 90% probably have the same source. Even if the other 90% don't, sure you would want them to start somewhere, than put off affirmative action for a few years? One way of confirming whether the 90% do come from the same source is prosecuting the spammers responsible for the 10% and then dealing with the reduced amount of spam in the next cycle. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Well, it's their own way... by sczimme (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:09PMSure, I'd give the job to a perl script by Doug Coulter (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:50PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Well, it's their own way... by plover (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:17PMRe:Well, it's their own way... by Fulcrum of Evil (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:33PMRe:Well, it's their own way... by calix0815 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:49PMRe:Well, it's their own way... by Tony Hoyle (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:25PMRe:Own...? by rea1l1 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:18PM Wheeee (Score:1) by SandMonkey (926467) on Friday October 28, @04:58PM (#13899767) Come one everybody together now!WE HATE SPAM!Geeze... this is only going to get worse before it gets better... and it's been getting worse for 10 years... [ Reply to ThisRe:Wheeee by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:28PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Vigilante? (Score:5, Insightful) by bizitch (546406) on Friday October 28, @04:58PM (#13899769) (http://www.the-sopra...y/s3_tony_logoff.wav) Since when is setting up a honeypot considered "Vigilante"? [ Reply to ThisRe:Vigilante? --- THE ZONK EFFECT ---- by putko (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:06PM Re:Vigilante? (Score:5, Funny) by KingSkippus (799657) * on Friday October 28, @05:10PM (#13899912) (http://skippus.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday June 19, @08:25AM) Since when is setting up a honeypot considered "Vigilante"? Since someone wants Microsoft to sound like a tough SOB out to wreak havoc on those who would do us harm.Would you go see a movie that is described [imdb.com] as "A New York City architect becomes a one-man honeypot after his wife is murdered..."? [ Reply to This | ParentAre you seriously suggesting by Rhinobird (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Vigilante? by JudgeFurious (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:30PMRe:Vigilante? by bleckywelcky (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:39PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Vigilante? (Score:5, Insightful) by Negadin (261695) on Friday October 28, @04:58PM (#13899778) If they are working with the FCC, why would it be considered 'vigilante'?That's like a considering a car company working with a police forensics department to determine why a car did what it did 'vigilante'. [ Reply to ThisRe:Vigilante? by Lehk228 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:10PMRe:Vigilante? by GigsVT (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:57PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. It takes.. (Score:4, Insightful) by ackthpt (218170) * on Friday October 28, @04:58PM (#13899779) (http://www.dragonswest.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday February 24, @01:27PM) It takes 20 days to collect data which may be used to convict the scumbags, but it takes yearsfor Microsoft to realize there was a problem and do something about it. To be fair, this should belaw enforcement, but someone has to file those John Does in a complaint."At the same press conference, Dan Salsburg, the assistant director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection, urged all computer users to do their part to stymie zombies."The FTC is taking aggressive steps to stop zombies and protect consumers, but consumers also need to insure that zombies aren't on their computers," Salsburg said." I'm sure they're shuffling paper like they've never quite shuffled before. Microsoft set up a clean computer and then infected it. They monitoredthe 'zombie' over the course of 20 days - 'In those 20 days, this one computer received5 million connection requests from spammers, and sent 18 million spam messages'. This whole operation has lead to the (partial) identification of 13 different spamming groups, some of which reside in the US and may be prosecuted under the CAN-SPAM act. I just don't want to see, a couple years from now, Microsoft being awarded patents on the invention of the Honeypot. [ Reply to Thistakes years for Microsoft... by shmlco (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:24PMRe:takes years for Microsoft... by ackthpt (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:45PMRe:takes years for Microsoft... by shmlco (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:35PMAre you sure? by tkrotchko (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:14PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Here's what we should do! by GecKo213 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:34PMRe:Here's what we should do! by ackthpt (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:38PM It takes a spammer... (Score:2) by J_Omega (709711) on Friday October 28, @05:01PM (#13899810) ... to catch a spammer? [ Reply to This Cut em some slack (Score:1) by LilGuy (150110) on Friday October 28, @05:02PM (#13899813) At least they're TRYING to do something about the situation they helped create. Let them have their fancy word 'vigilante' and let them continue to persue these annoying bastards. [ Reply to ThisRe:Cut em some slack by Atzanteol (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:22PM That is where it came from... (Score:1) by pturpin (801430) on Friday October 28, @05:02PM (#13899819) So MS is sending me spam now and can get away with and get positive credit for doing so? [ Reply to ThisRe:That is where it came from... by vrioux (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:07PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Right. (Score:5, Funny) by psbrogna (611644) on Friday October 28, @05:04PM (#13899850) Ok, raise your hand, who thinks there's more than 1 infected windows machine on the Redmond campus? [ Reply to ThisRe:Right. - hand goes up... by gerardlt (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:30PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold. and sent 18 million spam messages (Score:4, Funny) by frovingslosh (582462) on Friday October 28, @05:07PM (#13899880) and sent 18 million spam messages So I guess, Microsoft being above the law, it's OK when they do that. The end justifies the means, after all. [ Reply to ThisRe:and sent 18 million spam messages by Senzei (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:31PMRe:and sent 18 million spam messages by drewxhawaii (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:56PMRe:and sent 18 million spam messages by xigxag (Score:3) Friday October 28, @07:30PMRe:and sent 18 million spam messages by evilviper (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:54PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Sue Bill (Score:1)

connah0047 writes "The Washington Post reports that US passports will be getting RFID chips by October of 2006. Despite security concerns, the U.S. has now committed to putting RFID chips in the passports of all U.S. citizens. The new regulations will mean that all new and renewing U.S. passports will contain RFID chips by October 2006. While some believe this is a step forward, there are major privacy and security issues with the wireless technology."Ads_xl=0;Ads_yl=0;Ads_xp='';Ads_yp='';Ads_xp1='';Ads_yp1='';Ads_par='';Ads_cnturl='';Ads_prf='page=article';Ads_channels='RON_P6_IMU';Ads_wrd='privacy,usa,politics';Ads_kid=0;Ads_bid=0;Ads_sec=0; US Passports To Recieve RFID Chips Log in/Create an Account | Top | 241 comments | Search Discussion Display Options Threshold: -1: 241 comments 0: 237 comments 1: 194 comments 2: 121 comments 3: 32 comments 4: 11 comments 5: 7 comments Flat Nested No Comments Threaded Oldest First Newest First Highest Scores First Oldest First (Ignore Threads) Newest First (Ignore Threads) The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. If only they listened... (Score:5, Interesting) by KingSkippus (799657) * on Friday October 28, @05:33PM (#13900094) (http://skippus.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday June 19, @08:25AM) From TFA: But in a federal filing, the [State] department said that 98.5 percent of the 2,335 comments it received since it issued proposed rules last spring opposed the program. Abraham Lincoln once said [wikipedia.org] "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."I don't know about you all, but I think that Abe was a pretty wise man with a great idea. I sure wish that our government was like that...I can't help but wonder what would happen if everyone started "accidentally" microwaving their passports. [ Reply to ThisRe:If only they listened... by TheGavster (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:36PMRe:If only they listened... by SatanicPuppy (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:40PMRe:If only they listened... by einhverfr (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:46PMRe:If only they listened... by SatanicPuppy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:56PMRe:If only they listened... by rincebrain (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:09PMRe:If only they listened... by bentcd (Score:3) Friday October 28, @08:22PMRe:If only they listened... by einhverfr (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:40PMRe:If only they listened... by uncoveror (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:15PMRe:If only they listened... by glesga_kiss (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:23PMRe:If only they listened... by adavidw (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:35PMRe:If only they listened... by glesga_kiss (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:56PMRe:If only they listened... by rvandam (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:03PMRe:If only they listened... by a whoabot (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:12PMRe:If only they listened... by albertoiii (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:16PMRe:If only they listened... by Seumas (Score:1) Friday October 28, @09:35PMRe:If only they listened... by albertoiii (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:08PMRe:If only they listened... by BluedemonX (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:32PMRe:If only they listened... by misleb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:18PMRe:If only they listened... by symbolic (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:46PMRe:If only they listened... by VirexEye (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:57PMRe:If only they listened... by MoonBuggy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:16PMRe:If only they listened... by moviepig.com (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:18PMRe:If only they listened... by deke_2503 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:08PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:If only they listened... by Dan Up Baby (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:19PMRe:If only they listened... by poningru (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:45PM2 replies beneath your current threshold.Lincoln: nice words, different actions by AHumbleOpinion (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:05PMRe:If only they listened... by Guppy06 (Score:3) Friday October 28, @07:05PMRe:If only they listened... by vigilology (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:30PMWe have a more compelling mandate... by voice_of_all_reason (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:35PMRe:If only they listened... by evilviper (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:47PMRe:If only they listened... by lasindi (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:18PMMicrowave Advice by twitter (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:21PMconsent of the governed... by scotty777 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @09:08PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Don't like it. (Score:5, Interesting) by conJunk (779958) on Friday October 28, @05:33PM (#13900098) Earlier this year, I was sitting at a travel agent's office in Japan. There was a message prominately displayed on the desk in both English and Japanese informing travelers that they needed to have special machine-readable passports [state.gov] to enter the U.S. The rest of the world already thinks of us as loonies. This new nonsense won't help. Especially since we're requiring *other countries* to do this as well if their citizens want to enter the U.S.What's the point of RFID in a passport? Is it somehow magically impossible to forge or duplicate? Can't we agree that the people who are willing to go through the effort to make counterfeit documents like this will also have the resources to handle RFID? Aren't there ways we can spend this money that might do something a little more rational towards increasing security? Like what? I dunno. But there are probably better ways to spend the millions (billions?) this will cost to implement. [ Reply to ThisRe:Don't like it. by leathered (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:01PMRe:Don't like it. by notasheep (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:07PMRe:Don't like it. by Mister White (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:16PMRe:Don't like it. by Mister White (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:19PMRe:Don't like it. by eclectro (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:19PMRe:Don't like it. by davids-world.com (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:30PMRe:Don't like it. by Anne Thwacks (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:38PMIt isn't RFID by John Harrison (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:55PMRe:It isn't RFID by Sneftel (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:54PMRe:It isn't RFID by swillden (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:27AMRe:It isn't RFID by John Harrison (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:28AMRe:It isn't RFID by John Harrison (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:39PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Don't like it. by Barto (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:27PMRe:Don't like it. by Valkyre (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold. Microwaving passports (Score:5, Funny) by GeorgeMonroy (784609) on Friday October 28, @05:34PM (#13900103) (http://www.monroyits.com/) What ever do you mean? =) [ Reply to ThisRe:Microwaving passports by CanSpice (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:56PMRe:Microwaving passports by Karma_fucker_sucker (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:10PMRe:Microwaving passports by NeutronCowboy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:00PMRe:Microwaving passports by MacJedi (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:40PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Microwaving passports 4 fun and profit. by TiggertheMad (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:29PMRe:Microwaving passports 4 fun and profit. by raoul666 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:47PM For fuck's sake, rebel! (Score:1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 28, @05:34PM (#13900108) WAKE UP PEOPLE OF THE USA! [ Reply to ThisRe:For fuck's sake, rebel! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:45PMThe US fixes things internally without rebellion by AHumbleOpinion (Score:3) Friday October 28, @07:39PMIt is about liberty. by Lord Jester (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:36PMRe:The US fixes things internally without rebellio by a302b (Score:1) Saturday October 29, @12:06AMRe:The US fixes things internally without rebellio by zxsqkty (Score:1) Saturday October 29, @12:13AMRe:For fuck's sake, rebel! by x0n (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:52PMRe:For fuck's sake, rebel! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:08PM In other news... (Score:2) by Pig Hogger (10379) <pig...hogger@@@gmail...com> on Friday October 28, @05:35PM (#13900116) (http://216.138.229.143/Crackster | Last Journal: Wednesday September 22, @10:57PM) In other news, shares of Litton-McBee have been soaring 3%. According to industry expert Batson Dee-Seeling, this is because it is anticipated that microwave ovens (which uses magnetrons of which Litton-McBee have 33% of the market) sales will increase in the next two years. [ Reply to This Oh cool! (Score:3, Funny) by wheezl (63394) on Friday October 28, @05:36PM (#13900123) Now I'll be able to walk right through Customs without stopping.Riiiiiight. [ Reply to ThisRe:Oh cool! by Beardo the Bearded (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:46PMRe:Oh cool! by ChunderDownunder (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:27PMI wish! by Karma_fucker_sucker (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:31PMRe:I wish! by taniwha (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:33PMThis white male by soupdevil (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:04PMRe:Oh cool! by Krach42 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:53PMRe:Oh cool! by Red Alastor (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:37PM Remove the chip? (Score:1) by Bladestorm (914734) on Friday October 28, @05:37PM (#13900136) Would it be all that impossible to just remove it from the passport? [ Reply to ThisRe:Remove the chip? by staticsage (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:43PMRe:Remove the chip? by Bladestorm (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:29PMGo Directly to Jail by voice_of_all_reason (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:39PMRe:Go Directly to Jail by Bladestorm (Score:1) Saturday October 29, @12:01AM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Wonder how long it'll be... (Score:5, Insightful) by Mister White (892068) on Friday October 28, @05:37PM (#13900140) Wonder how long until this gets whored out..Unfortunately for us, RFID chips can be read by any schmuck walking down the block with a scanner, not just the ones at the customs desk in the airport. Essentially, you may as well just pass out flyers with your personal information on them...Is this REALLY where we should be heading? [ Reply to ThisRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by conJunk (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:46PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by 330Pilot (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:52PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by conJunk (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:56PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by Mr. Sketch (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:21PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by hurfy (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:49PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by cyclone96 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:17PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by aiyo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:57PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by sound+vision (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:55PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by eggmit (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:01PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by CanSpice (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:01PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by Mister White (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:13PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by d34thm0nk3y (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:58PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by benbob (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:03PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by Sneftel (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:59PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by voice_of_all_reason (Score:1) Friday October 28, @07:43PMRe:Wonder how long it'll be... by jobcello (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:20PM Will microwaving disable the chip? (Score:2) by geneing (756949) on Friday October 28, @05:37PM (#13900142) If I microwave my passport with that disable the chip? I need to know. My passport expires in 2009. [ Reply to ThisRe:Will microwaving disable the chip? by pclminion (Score:3) Friday October 28, @05:38PMRe:Will microwaving disable the chip? by slavemowgli (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:11PMRe:Will microwaving disable the chip? by Jherek Carnelian (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:41PMDo not microwave.... by Savage-Rabbit (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:36PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.2 replies beneath your current threshold. Robustness (Score:4, Interesting) by sjhwilkes (202568) on Friday October 28, @05:37PM (#13900144) How big is this RFID chip? Small enough to be undetectable in the cover of the passport? How well will it function after being hit with a hammer? [ Reply to ThisRe:Robustness by Mister White (Score:1) Friday October 28, @05:42PMRe:Robustness by twitter (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:24PM Excuse me, could you remove your keys, passport .. (Score:1) by slashbob22 (918040) on Friday October 28, @05:38PM (#13900145) Great, just another thing to beep while going through the scanners! [ Reply to This tin foil (Score:3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 28, @05:39PM (#13900152) Glad I got the matching wallet when I bought my hat [ Reply to This Farraday (Score:4, Funny) by misleb (129952) on Friday October 28, @05:44PM (#13900202) I should patent the Farraday Passport Sleeve. My slogan would be, "The 'tin foil hat' for sane people."Oh, damn. I need to patent stuff before I post the idea to Slashdot.-matthew [ Reply to ThisRe:Farraday by MichaelSmith (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:21PMRe:Farraday by misleb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:33PMRe:Farraday by DrSkwid (Score:3) Friday October 28, @06:22PMRe:Farraday by misleb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:38PM3 replies beneath your current threshold. folks (Score:3, Insightful) by circletimessquare (444983) <circletimessquare@@@gmail...com> on Friday October 28, @05:46PM (#13900232) just wrap your passport in foili'm not saying that you don't have a right to complain about this, and that there aren't real issues of snooping involvedbut i am saying the solution is easy and the implementation of this won't be stoppedso get some foil, and wrap it up, and move on to fighting for something worthwhiledon't waste your energies on a done deal with an easy work around [ Reply to ThisRe:folks by Krach42 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @05:57PMRe:folks by drinkypoo (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:09PMRe:folks by networkBoy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:09PMRe:folks by MightyMartian (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:08PMno, freedom shouldn't be a kludge by circletimessquare (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:36PMWhy don't they simply .... by taniwha (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:25PM Enhanced productivity. (Score:3, Informative) by OgGreeb (35588) <og@digimark.net> on Friday October 28, @05:47PM (#13900233) (http://www.digimark.net/) On the plus side, it will be much easier for terrorists to wave a RFID scanner and pick out the Americans on an international flight. [ Reply to ThisRe:Enhanced productivity. by slavemowgli (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:08PMRe:Enhanced productivity. by MichaelSmith (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:27PMRe:Enhanced productivity. by raoul666 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @10:53PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Catch the Bad Guys, Lose the Good! (Score:1) by RISTMO (926726) on Friday October 28, @05:48PM (#13900241) (http://www.ristmo.com/) So now if I get kidnapped in the Middle East and get my passport stolen, they can track down the culprits! Yay! But wait -- what about ME? And here I thought they'd want me more than the bad guys :-/. [ Reply to ThisRe:Catch the Bad Guys, Lose the Good! by Tandoori Haggis (Score:2) Friday October 28, @08:46PM As seen on /. earlier this week (Score:1) by davidwr (791652) on Friday October 28, @05:48PM (#13900246) (Last Journal: Monday October 24, @05:04PM) Same substance was part of the Slashback [slashdot.org] post earlier this week. [ Reply to This For those of us with expired passports... (Score:2) by merreborn (853723) on Friday October 28, @05:52PM (#13900270) It would seem the time to renew is now! [ Reply to This X-Ray Scanning? (Score:5, Insightful) by forand (530402) on Friday October 28, @05:52PM (#13900278) So what happens to the RFID when it goes through a dozen X-Ray scans? How about just sitting in my pocket at 35k ft? Have these chips been tested to show that they will continue to work after normal wear of a passport? My passport certainly takes a beating everytime I travel: x-rays, increased radiation due to high elevation, bending, humidity, etc. I doubt all these things have been tested for.I really don't want to have to wait and hour and miss my flight as the prove that I am who my passport says I am just because some stupid chip failed. [ Reply to ThisRe:X-Ray Scanning? by SydShamino (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:04PMRe:X-Ray Scanning? by networkBoy (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:12PMRe: X-Ray Scanning by misleb (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:43PMRe: X-Ray Scanning by forand (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:51PMRe:X-Ray Scanning? by markdavis (Score:2) Friday October 28, @07:14PMRe:X-Ray Scanning? by swillden (Score:2) Saturday October 29, @12:43AMRe:X-Ray Scanning? by tk2x (Score:1) Friday October 28, @08:35PM Security issues... (Score:1) by RISTMO (926726) on Friday October 28, @05:54PM (#13900290) (http://www.ristmo.com/) "there are major privacy and security issues with the wireless technology"news to me. [ Reply to This1 reply beneath your current threshold. Business idea (Score:1) by mosabua (534503) <manfred AT mosabuam DOT com> on Friday October 28, @05:55PM (#13900300) (http://www.mosabuam.com/) So how about selling passport wallets that have a metal mesh in the cover. So long as the passport is in the wallet and it is closed the faraday cage around it should make rfid reading impossible. Would that actually work?That safes you for all situations until you cross borders. Then of course anybody standing near enough can read it.. more or less. [ Reply to ThisRe:Business idea by uncoveror (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:30PMRe:Business idea by wendyk (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:46PM Doesn't help Americans (Score:1, Insightful) by Viper233 (132365) on Friday October 28, @05:55PM (#13900301) (http://slashdot.org/) Troll/Flamebait/Funny/InterestingIf I was in this situation I'd be reluctant to get a passport and travel overseas. This seems to be a bad thing for Americans as most of them don't really know what is outside of America... I learnt about other countries from stories of our war veterans fighting on foriegn soil to help protect it... Do American children get taught about the same stories of the 1st and 2nd World War? the A bomb drop etc in school? Mormans have it worse, their new testament was based in America, maybe they don't even know about the Israel/Palistine area....Hopefully I'm only speaking about a small number the Americans and some of them can flame me back to disprove what I've just said.*Holds up lighter to ignite flame throwers* :-} [ Reply to ThisRe:Doesn't help Americans by ja-ja-morkmorkmork (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:19PMRe:Doesn't help Americans by fishybell (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:22PMRe:Doesn't help Americans by arkmannj (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:47PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Re:Doesn't help Americans by Acius (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:37PMA little fact-checking by Acius (Score:2) Friday October 28, @11:49PM Papers please! (Score:4, Interesting) by isotope23 (210590) on Friday October 28, @06:05PM (#13900381) (http://newlibertarian.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Monday July 18, @03:23PM) IMO this country is going down the tubes in a big way.Remember history or civics class in school? The inevitable lessons about how free the US was compared to Hitler's germany or the soviet union. Back then they used to point out how free we were because we did not need papers (internal passports) to travel.How fricking free are we when we need a driver's license to board a plane? Or when our KIDS [gcn.com] need ID to board a plane? Or to visit a national park, or federal building? Not to mention the citizens are going to EAT [gcn.com] the costs.More and more it seems the only alternative is to go gulching [wikipedia.org] until the country regains its "mind your own business" mentality.Today's USA, The Anti-federalists [wikipedia.org] worst nightmare coming true. [ Reply to ThisRe:Papers please! by zoloto (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:28PMargentina? by isotope23 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @06:45PMRe:argentina? by isotope23 (Score:2) Friday October 28, @10:32PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold. New Law (Score:3, Interesting) by Valiss (463641) on Friday October 28, @06:12PM (#13900426) (http://www.whutdufuk.com/) I somehow suspect that damaging a RFID chip (or passport) will soon be illegal. [ Reply to ThisRe:New Law by kevstar31 (Score:1) Friday October 28, @06:54PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. I Am Canadian! (Score:1) by gotkube (912919) on Friday October 28, @06:12PM (#13900429) Just one more example of how I thank God every single day that I'm Canadian. [ Reply to This1 reply beneath your current threshold. shielded wallet (Score:2)