An anonymous reader writes "BusinessWeek Online is running a story on the new opportunities indie game developers are finding in the casual games space. They also have a Q&A with one of Microsoft's gaming gurus." From the article: "Until recently, the market for electronic games was mainly young, male, and diehard. These days, a bigger, more age-diverse group that increasingly includes and women is joining in the fun, spending anywhere from a few minutes a day to long stretches on online poker or games such as Bejewelled, Tetris, and The Sims. As more people sign up for high-speed Internet access (almost 60% of the U.S. population now has access to broadband), the gaming experience -- both for games playable online, such as Bejewelled, and CD- or DVD-ROM titles with an online component, like The Sims -- has become more appealing. Casual gamers now make up about 1% of the $20.5 billion game-software market." Indie Game Developers See Big Opportunity Log in/Create an Account | Top | 114 comments | Search Discussion Display Options Threshold: -1: 114 comments 0: 109 comments 1: 98 comments 2: 73 comments 3: 29 comments 4: 12 comments 5: 3 comments Flat Nested No Comments Threaded Oldest First Newest First Highest Scores First Oldest First (Ignore Threads) Newest First (Ignore Threads) The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Of course (Score:5, Insightful) by Red Flayer (890720) on Friday October 14, @02:42PM (#13792559) Take any retail industry. Make distribution costs sufficiently close to zero. Make unit cost close to zero. Independent producers will grow like weeds. Add in the fact that the casual gamer market was underutilized... Profit! [ Reply to ThisRe:Of course by Dachannien (Score:3) Friday October 14, @02:44PMProfits tend to zero by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Friday October 14, @02:52PMNot actually perfect competition by Swimmin' Pants (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:11PM Re:Profits tend to zero (Score:4, Insightful) by Red Flayer (890720) on Friday October 14, @03:11PM (#13792794) "Characterized by a free flow of information, no barriers to entry, and a large number of buyers and sellers." Except that there are barriers to entry (development costs -- like hiring a good designer & good developer). Still, much smaller barriers than in many other industries. Also, a perfectly competitive market assumes that all products are equivalent, which is not the case here. So, some developers will realize a hefty profit (due to a better product) and some will realize losses. In the long run, extrapolated across all competitors, you are correct... but there is still a huge capacity for profit due to differences in the product. [ Reply to This | Parent1 reply beneath your current threshold.Steam by bhsx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:56PMWhy yes, I do have mad html skills... by bhsx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:00PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. The Sims not online (Score:1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 14, @02:43PM (#13792562) Since when does the average Sims title have an online component? [ Reply to ThisRe:The Sims not online by lividdr (Score:2) Friday October 14, @02:59PMRe:The Sims not online by Mister Skippy (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:00PM So nothing's changed then? (Score:4, Insightful) by Buddy_DoQ (922706) on Friday October 14, @02:44PM (#13792571) (http://buddy.deadonque.com/) What they're trying to say is, that nothing has changed since the days of Tertris.Boys are still the big buyers and mom sometimes likes Tertis-like games. Making more Tertis-like games may bring in more money, but I don't think it'll be as big as they think. (But I've been wrong before, and as an indie type my self, I'd love to be!) [ Reply to This Re:So nothing's changed then? (Score:4, Funny) by Xarius (691264) <xarius@gmail. c o m> on Friday October 14, @02:47PM (#13792592) How can someone spell Tetris wrong three times in a row?! [ Reply to This | ParentRe:So nothing's changed then? by mopslik (Score:3) Friday October 14, @02:59PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Buddy_DoQ (Score:1) Friday October 14, @04:39PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Sigma 7 (Score:2) Friday October 14, @11:43PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Sigma 7 (Score:2) Friday October 14, @11:46PM1 reply beneath your current threshold. Re:So nothing's changed then? (Score:4, Interesting) by garcia (6573) on Friday October 14, @02:49PM (#13792613) (http://www.lazylightning.org/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 27, @04:39PM) Boys are still the big buyers and mom sometimes likes Tertis-like games. Making more Tertis-like games may bring in more money, but I don't think it'll be as big as they think. (But I've been wrong before, and as an indie type my self, I'd love to be!)I enjoy puzzle games like Tetris and specifically "Bejeweled" (or any of the 1000 other names it goes by depending on variation) but that's because they are "free". I can go to Yahoo Games and fire up a game of Gin, Literati, Bejeweled, etc, all for nothing. I don't need a game to sit on my HD taking up space, I don't need the latest and greatest system to run it, I don't need to pay an arm and a leg, and I don't get bored with the game after I "finish" it.My problem with most modern games is that the long term playability just isn't there. Yeah, most FPS shooters with online play break that mold but there are plenty of others that don't. You need to invest too much in hardware, software, and time and then you're bored with it in a month/year.I have a Ms. Pacman machine (currently in disrepair unfortunately). It's been out since 1982 and it's just as much fun today as it was then.I'll take a puzzle game over some multi-million dollar interactive movie anyday. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:So nothing's changed then? by dbhankins (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:03PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Norgus (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:37PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Red Flayer (Score:3) Friday October 14, @03:41PMRe:So nothing's changed then? by Lerc (Score:2) Friday October 14, @05:28PM Only 1%.... (Score:3, Insightful) by wpiman (739077) * on Friday October 14, @02:45PM (#13792577) that seems low to me.I would probably catorgorize myself as a casual gamer- I play once a week- often not at all- but I'd say I buy 5-6 games a year. I'd like to play more- but don't have time. Is this just me or are others in this same category? [ Reply to ThisRe:Only 1%.... by ShibaInu (Score:1) Friday October 14, @02:50PMRe:Only 1%.... by garcia (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:02PMRe:Only 1%.... by CasulPoster (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:12PMRe:Only 1%.... by Meagermanx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:08PM2 replies beneath your current threshold. Negative Effects? (Score:3, Interesting) by matr0x_x (919985) on Friday October 14, @02:46PM (#13792584) (http://www.linuxpoker.net/) I am not convinced that games going mainstream is necessarily a good thing! As more and more average Americans start playing video games in their spare time, the lucrative market video game creators will target will also change. Pretty soon games like Halo will be on the back burner to "every day games" free of killing and other evils. Could this mean a world full of The Sims knockoffs? [ Reply to ThisRe:Negative Effects? by CasulPoster (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:17PMRe:Negative Effects? by confusednoise (Score:3) Friday October 14, @03:26PMRe:Negative Effects? by zev1983 (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:26PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.Ah yes by mcc (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:46PMRe:Negative Effects? by freeweed (Score:3) Friday October 14, @03:49PMRe:Negative Effects? by scot4875 (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:52PM When can I get Death Cab (PC) preload from Steam? (Score:3, Funny) by christian.elliott (892060) on Friday October 14, @02:46PM (#13792586) (Last Journal: Friday October 14, @03:07PM) Here we go, I can see it now. Soon enough I'll have to wade through a sea of EMO kids trying to get my copy of HL3 or Doom 18, having my tastes in game critiqued and told how I should really be playing "Indie Games" because thats where the "real talent" is. [ Reply to ThisRe:When can I get Death Cab (PC) preload from Stea by XFilesFMDS1013 (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:10PM I'm surprised (Score:4, Informative) by Conspiracy_Of_Doves (236787) on Friday October 14, @02:47PM (#13792591) They didn't mention Manifesto Games [manifestogames.com], the new startup established by Greg Costikyan, author of the Scratchware Manifesto [the-underdogs.org] [ Reply to ThisRe:I'm surprised by Toddarooski (Score:3) Friday October 14, @04:13PMRe:I'm surprised by cliffski (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:33PM This is great! (Score:4, Interesting) by Yhippa (443967) on Friday October 14, @02:47PM (#13792597) (Last Journal: Friday June 20, @04:34PM) I've been waiting for things like this to really pick up. Most of the games I've played on the consoles or PC are incremental improvements over a previous version. I like the fact that the barrier for entry is lower so that people with different ideas get a shot at making some cool games.I think a lot of us remember the days of the Atari 2600 where there were few sequels and mostly different (and sometimes weird) ideas. I felt that way about games until they started to become really commercialized in the late 90's and all we get now are rehashes because the big businesses are not willing to take risks and want steady incomes. Maybe we'll see some new games now. [ Reply to ThisRe:This is great! by ScrewMaster (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:02PMRe:This is great! by Magnusite (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:11PMRe:This is great! by Meagermanx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:27PMRe:This is great! by Bent Mind (Score:2) Friday October 14, @05:42PM The headline.. like a tragedy (Score:2, Insightful) by jkind (922585) on Friday October 14, @02:48PM (#13792603) (http://www.milliondollarsweethearts.com/) I had hope until the last line of the headline.. 1% ????How does a indie company / startup go into their local innovation funding office and pitch their great quirky game idea when they can only say "Games like this will be 3% maybe of the game market this year!"?btw when is it indie, and when do you use indy.. ?? [ Reply to ThisRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by goodenoughnickname (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:02PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by Red Flayer (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:03PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by glyph42 (Score:3) Friday October 14, @03:18PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by Red Flayer (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:50PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by geminidomino (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:41PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by TrentC (Score:3) Friday October 14, @04:12PMRe:The headline.. like a tragedy by Red Flayer (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:51PM1 reply beneath your current threshold.1 reply beneath your current threshold. Voice-recognition RPG (Score:5, Interesting) by G4from128k (686170) on Friday October 14, @02:51PM (#13792633) Some cellphone service provider is going to make a killing on a voice-activated old-school RPG. The player speaks their commands ("move forward" "pick up crystal") and a pleasant synth or sampled voice tells the player what they see ("You are in a dark forest and the sun is setting. In front of you lies a shining sword and a bulging bag. A trail leads forward toward a crumbling castle").Just think of the minutes burned as the "caller" explores some world/dungeon for hours. [ Reply to ThisRe:Voice-recognition RPG by Enigma_Man (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:00PM Character actors, line up (Score:5, Funny) by ianscot (591483) on Friday October 14, @03:11PM (#13792791) We need to audition for the definitive "You may be eaten by a Grue" voice. [ Reply to This | ParentRe:Voice-recognition RPG by Magnusite (Score:3) Friday October 14, @04:08PMRe:Voice-recognition RPG by DJDutcher (Score:1) Friday October 14, @04:57PMRe:Voice-recognition RPG by Meagermanx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @05:04PM Cripes! (Score:1) by Morgalyn (605015) on Friday October 14, @02:53PM (#13792653) (Last Journal: Friday September 30, @10:15AM) Did anyone else mentally stumble over the awkward incorrect grammar in the summary? Example:"that increasingly includes and women is joining in the fun" Did the submitter C&P, or did he re-type? [ Reply to This Yawn (Score:4, Insightful) by beakerMeep (716990) on Friday October 14, @02:53PM (#13792654) These articles are like "is apple dying?" articles. Need to run one of them every few months as per the publishers guidebook for easy stories. Not that this story is wrong but talking about games like Bejewelled-like as some sort of new market is silly. From the article, "Until recently, the market for electronic games was mainly young, male, and diehard." Not at all.Girls have outnumbered guys playing games for years and it's all games like this with companies capitalizing all along.For once i would like to see information on how this effects more traditionally "guy" games. For instance i bet the are significantly more girls playing WoW than ever played Ultima Online despite it still being vastly a male audience. Also would like to see how girls have influced the creation of more advanced games that cater to their gender more so than their male counterparts -- such as Black and White or The Sims.I'm not holding my breath though ;) [ Reply to ThisRe:Yawn by TooMuchEspressoGuy (Score:1) Friday October 14, @04:16PMRe:Yawn by typical (Score:2) Saturday October 15, @12:10AMRe:Yawn by Red Flayer (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:55PM Several factors .... (Score:3, Insightful) by AlltheCoolNamesGone (838035) * on Friday October 14, @02:57PM (#13792684) as to why there seems to be more "casual" gamers.1. More homes have PCs now. Do you really think that people are not going to take advantage of all the features of a PC?2. There is little to no social stigma left to playing PC games.3. Lack of time in our daily lives. (When you grow up and have a family you cant spend 8 hours a day 7 days a week playing your favorite games)This shouldn't be surpriseing if anything the casual gamer market should continue growing. [ Reply to ThisRe:Several factors .... by Rude Turnip (Score:1) Friday October 14, @03:05PM Distribution client? (Score:4, Insightful) by No Such Agency (136681) <deep_fried_gmosNO@SPAMyahoo.ca> on Friday October 14, @02:57PM (#13792687) "almost 60% of the U.S. population now has access to broadband"Does this mean that 60% of the population HAS broadband access in their homes? Or that they could have it installed if they want? I assume that it means the former, since almost everyone has cable TV by now and therefore likely access to cable internet.I wonder what the possibilities would be for starting a Steam-like service, but instead of peddling one's own games, instead distributing inexpensive indie games in exchange for a percentage? Would many casual gamers install a client like that? [ Reply to ThisRe:Distribution client? by tgd (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:12PMRe:Distribution client? by ObsessiveMathsFreak (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:26PMRe:Distribution client? by Godeke (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:32PMRe:Distribution client? by bhsx (Score:2) Friday October 14, @04:09PMRe:Distribution client? by Bent Mind (Score:2) Friday October 14, @05:57PM A great market (Score:2, Interesting) by core (3330) on Friday October 14, @03:10PM (#13792780) (http://www.funpause.com/) Casual downloadable games are a great market indeed. My latest title, Atlantis, is #1 in sales on big portals right now (Real Arcade and BigFish Games at the moment), and direct sales, in number of units, are way into the 4-digits range after three months out. We get to make the games we like and have direct contact with customers to help them out and gather suggestions, which is fantastic.Best regards,Emmanuel--Smash hit ball matching game for PC and Mac:http://www.funpause.com/atlantis/ [funpause.com]Currently #1 on RealArcade and BigFish ! [ Reply to This It's all about puzzle games (Score:2) by British (51765) <british1500@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Friday October 14, @03:12PM (#13792797) (http://infaux.net/ | Last Journal: Thursday September 01, @03:08PM) I love GTA, etc, but I have a place in my heart for puzzle games. Gotta love 'em1. Low system requirements. You can port it to a freakin' Atari 2600 depending on the game, or a cell phone.2. Takes almost no time to learn.3. Often many puzzle games have open-ended design to expand gameplay without making hit hideously complicated.Every time I see one of those media players with a d-pad, I always wonder if it would be possible to port Tetris, Bejweled, etc on them. oh what fun it would be to port Bejeweled to as many portable systems as possible(cell phone(done), PSP, GBA, wonderswan, GP32, Tapwave Zodiac, Ipod(wow does it need more games), GP32X, digital cameras(mame was done) and anything else I haven't mentioned).Bejeweled for everyone! [ Reply to This Problem with indi games dev (Score:2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 14, @03:14PM (#13792814) Having worked on 4 mods now, 2 halflife, 2 Unreal I can tell you why independent games development is not going to get any easier in the next few years. For starters costs, in sheer man hours work is vast, translate that into salaries and I will take a stab at saying games devs outspend filmakers. Unstable market and too much nanny legislation is going to scare most indis away from taking the risks. Making games is a very risky business, the best stuff is only made for people who do it for the love of it imho. The model is very much like the misic biz right now, a few lucky titles rake in all the profit after spending a fortune on hype and marketing while most of the real innovation out there gets swept aside because it is either too avant gard or trying to emulate the pedestrian success of whats already out there. Sure there is a huge _POTENTIAL_ market out there for us, but its not a market we have access to as small startup development teams. Also a fundamental technical/legal mistake is that games are like software was in the 60s. before anybody discovered standards and reuse. Every game reinvents the same basic objects, models, meshes and textures and few of these find their way into a public domain base of resources, thus every game is a dupe of 80% of the same work as the next game. [ Reply to This1 reply beneath your current threshold. Old News (Score:1) by Eli Gottlieb (917758) on Friday October 14, @03:16PM (#13792826) (https://sourceforge.net/projects/glider-kernel) I could swear I read something just like this several (3-4) years ago when I logged onto www.gamedev.net. [ Reply to This Casual gaming is a crowded market (Score:4, Insightful) by Junks Jerzey (54586) on Friday October 14, @03:19PM (#13792851) Five years ago, this was big news. Very few companies were looking to the Solitaire / Minesweeper market. Some were, yes, and some of these were doing extremely well. Since then there has been a proliferation of casual game companies to the point where it's a difficult market to break into. A big reason for this is that the barriers for entry are low: games that involve fairly simple programming, aren't content heavy, aren't 3D, etc. You can toss together a Bewjeweled-like game in a week, plus spend another few weeks polishing it up. What's worse is that there's very little innovation of any kind. Everyone is cloning the same handful of games, usually bubble-popping games (like Bejeweled). And it's unclear that the casual market has any interest in innovation anyway. People want a mindless game like Solitaire or Bejeweled and that's that. They don't want an endless stream of games. [ Reply to ThisRe:Casual gaming is a crowded market by ggambett (Score:2) Friday October 14, @03:57PM 60% of Americans... (Score:3, Insightful) by mpapet (761907) <mpapetNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Friday October 14, @03:23PM (#13792892) (http://www.michaelpapet.com/) almost 60% of the U.S. population now has access to broadbandJust because they have access doesn't mean they HAVE broadband, much less a computer. Please note a significant portion of American homes still do not have PC's. It really bugs me when stats are used in this way.At this point, it's kind of like the phone I'd guess in that its only a matter of time (non-computer users dying) before it gets much closer to the entire population. [ Reply to This Sortasoft (Score:3, Interesting) by TheSifters (228899) on Friday October 14, @03:30PM (#13792961) I've recently entered into the casual games industry myself. There is definitely a market out there and I love working for myself and creating whatever I feel like creating. I have also found that the developer community is very helpful and willing to share their knowledge. If anyone wants to know more about just ask I'd love to share what i've learned.My first casual game Funky Farm [sortasoft.com] has been doing better than I could ever have imagined, and I'm close to finishing my 2nd casual game. If you want to check out my site.... www.sortasoft.com [sortasoft.com] [ Reply to ThisRe:Sortasoft by BigZaphod (Score:2) Friday October 14, @05:17PMRe:Sortasoft by beej (Score:1) Friday October 14, @05:21PM Scrabble (Score:2) by kevin_conaway (585204) on Friday October 14, @03:34PM (#13792983) (Last Journal: Thursday April 28, @02:48PM) I'll take this opportunity to shameless plug my Online Scrabble [sf.net] game written in Python. Stop by and play a game! [ Reply to This One success story and a lot of unsupported figures (Score:3) by Rogerborg (306625) on Friday October 14, @03:37PM (#13793000) (http://slashdot.org/) Zounds! Is it time for the "Niche Industry X is resurgent!" filler story again? No real news going on, I take it. [ Reply to This Hmm... (Score:1) by RedNovember (887384) on Friday October 14, @03:51PM (#13793112) This has a lot to do with the previous article about videogame aesthetics, in that a lot of independent developers have their own visual style. Once everything is made by the same guys, everything starts to look bad, and play worse. With indie developers, you don't have as much pressure, and a lot of games like Marathon [bungie.org] and Katamari [namco.com] have a sort of quirkiness that I find appealing.Personally I don't think I have enough indie games. Stubbs the Zombie [stubbsthezombie.com] is looking good, though. I might get it when it comes out. [ Reply to This you still need a publisher (Score:1) by nazsco (695026) on Friday October 14, @03:59PM (#13793229) (Last Journal: Saturday October 01, @04:15PM) read from someone with a clue :)http://grumpygamer.com/6647684 [grumpygamer.com] [ Reply to This Casual gamers? (Score:2) by johansalk (818687) on Friday October 14, @04:07PM (#13793325) I thought the whole of gaming was a casual activity. [ Reply to This How many times have I read about this on Escapist? (Score:1) by jomynow (552972) <jomynow&yahoo,com> on Friday October 14, @04:10PM (#13793360) (http://omgwtfmedia.blogspot.com/) The writers there have been blathering on and on about it for as long as I've been reading it. I'm too lazy to find the link to the specific article but it was one the ones about long rants about a hit driven industry the gaming has become and unlike other mediums where indie persists and is partially funded by the hits making it more appealing to a greater number and occasionally people filter in to the mainstream. There was also the article at wired a while back about the long tail. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/page/archive/ [escapistmagazine.com] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Tail/ [wikipedia.org] [ Reply to This Casual but loaded with cash? (Score:1) by randomaxe (673239) on Friday October 14, @04:34PM (#13793602) (http://randomaxe.keenspace.com/)